Mattjin
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Post by Mattjin on Jan 29, 2010 19:14:47 GMT 10
My Factory Pro Jet Kit arrived today, along with the 4deg Advanced crank trigger, so before I jump in and fit it up I thought I have better go and have the bike dynoed to get a baseline AFR graph, and it does not hurt to see the power curve. They use a Dyno Dynamics unit, but I did not get a chance to see the corrections. In all honesty the power figure is not something I really care about, I was doing this to get the Air Fuel Ratio (AFR).
I was on the bike with no way to take anything home, so I left the sheets at the bike shop until tomorrow. It is only 1 minute away from my own car dyno shop so I will be collecting them tomorrow and posting up.
So... the list of mods for reference. The bike is a stock 2003 model, and has Yoshimura RS-3 slip-ons with the exhaust ground out, and the removable baffles out (how I ride it). It has a brand new stock air filter with the only mod to the airbox being the inlet snorkel which is removed.
On the dyno it made just over 100hp, around 102-103 I think, but again dont go off the numbers as they are meaningless. I am only after gains and losses and I am re-using the same dyno. The interesting part is that from around 4000rpm onwards it is quite rich at around 11.5:1 and remains remarkedly flat all the way to the redline. So for me, I am starting to think that I dont need the jet kit, I might instead just get some smaller mains which will shift the whole AFR curve up a bit. So until I scan and post the sheet up that's all for the first day. I am interested as to how alot of people say their bike is lean, and only a handful run on the richer side like mine.
I will be testing the snorkel removal for gains and losses after I sort the jetting out, which will come later.
There is one question someone may be able to answer. Do the Keihin jet sizes go by flow or by diameter of the hole? Doing some calculations for the correct jet size so I only have to pull the bloody carbs off once.
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Post by colinlinz on Jan 29, 2010 21:39:33 GMT 10
Mikuni use flow rate, but I'm not sure what Keihan use. Sorry.
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Mattjin
True Stormer
I don’t think you are stupid. You just have a bad luck when thinking.
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Post by Mattjin on Jan 29, 2010 22:47:40 GMT 10
I vaguely remember Mikuni were flow based, but I have a feeling Keihin are based on diameter, but either way I will grab some smaller jets and see how we go.
I am also interested to see the effect of the baffles on power and jetting, so next time I am there I will throw them on. I carry them under the seat ..... just incase.
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Post by colinlinz on Jan 29, 2010 22:56:41 GMT 10
It should be interesting. It is a pity you have ground the exhaust out. I would love to see some dyno charts on this mod. I was discussing it with Keith from Honda MPE a couple of years ago. He offered to do a before and after run on Honda's dyno, they just had to be in the Melbourne area. Unfortunately at the time no one was doing it.
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Post by revhead1957 on Jan 30, 2010 5:36:16 GMT 10
There is also a lot of conjecture about the snorkel removal and it's effect on slide action. Apart from that I would think that the bulk of forum members have the same setup i.e. stock apart from pipes and removal of the carb and exhaust restrictors. It will be good to get the setup info from someone who has been prepared to do the before and after runs in a scientific way.
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mikstr
Regular Member
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Post by mikstr on Jan 30, 2010 6:23:06 GMT 10
Factory and Keihin use the same numbering system (unlike DynoJet, for example)
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shayne
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1998 Blueprint
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Post by shayne on Jan 30, 2010 10:11:38 GMT 10
Factory and Keihin use the same numbering system (unlike DynoJet, for example) So, DJ jets are numerically larger for the same size as a Keihin jet. I dunno by how much though.
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shayne
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1998 Blueprint
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Post by shayne on Jan 30, 2010 10:36:24 GMT 10
As I stated elsewhere, I think this will be interesting. I do not know how much reading you have done on the VTR, but there is plenty on the net. Lots of people have tried this stuff before, and there have been lots of hours spent on the dyno trying different things. No doubt because you can, you are going to do your own experiments. Lucky you! Plenty of us would like the same opportunity. It will be interesting to see if you can break new ground, or if you end up at the same conclusions as those that have gone before you. I would like to tell you a couple of things though, just to keep in the back of your mind while you experiment. Main jet sizes - you think they can be smaller, but nobody else has got this to work with the standard intake. I have 170 main jets, but I have different velocity stacks. Another guy with a dyno said exactly what you did, and he tried smaller mains to get the AFR right, but the bike ran like a pig when he rode it. The only way he got it sorted was to go back to the larger main sizes. His bike was stock like yours. Snorkel - one squillion people (approx) have tried removing it to get more power. You may get more power on the dyno, but when you ride it you will get flat spots. Same thing with opening up the airbox in other ways, or putting in a larger filter like the Unifilter (K&N, BMC etc are all ok). The carby slides don't like it (personal theory). I had to go back to a more normal intake design to get a smooth power curve. It never showed up on the dyno run though. I can give you a set-up that will run 205 mains, 50 pilots, and will pull your arms out when you crack the throttle. But it has flat spots. The only way to get rid of the flat spots was to reduce the airflow. Now it rides nicely, but with less power. So while you are have a go at it keep these points in mind. It might save you a bit of time while you are stuffing about. Keep us posted on what you come up with. With any luck you may figure something out that has not been tried before. One last thing. I tried everything I could think of to get rid of those flat spots. Every jetting combo possible, including some impossible to find HRC carby components which I borrowed. So I came to the conclusion that it was the carby slides being effected by the airflow, and not operating smoothly. So I then tried to change things to see if it could be fixed. Changing the slide holes either way made no difference. The next experiment was the spring rates, but I never got there. I had just had enough of working on it, and after a few months I gave it away. I reduced the airflow a bit, went back down in my jet sizes and just started thinking about EFI instead. So maybe the slide springs can be changed to help with this problem. You have a Factory kit, which will not have replacement springs unless you bought the top line race kit. Dyno Jets kits have new springs as well. I had DJ springs in my bike, so maybe stock springs could work better, or some other springs from something else. Good luck.
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Post by colinlinz on Jan 30, 2010 11:01:55 GMT 10
I'm pretty sure that DJ use size rather than flow.
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Mattjin
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Post by Mattjin on Jan 30, 2010 12:21:39 GMT 10
Here is the sheet. I think the printout is a little messy and I will make sure the next runs are better laid out. I would normally re-scale the power and AFR axis a little better but it was out of my control at the time. Having a better look now I can see the AFR is richer than 11.5, more like 11.0 for a while leaning back to maybe 11.4 up top. These are the sort of mixtures you would run with 20psi of boost in it! I remember reading Hymey's info in another thread regarding his work on injecting and turbocharging and he mentioned the same thing with the mixtures. I am actually looking forward to running into issues with the jetting. It is all part of the fun of seeing how things interact and it keeps me busy on the weekends. I have read just about every thread on all of the forums regarding the tuning of these bikes, but if there is one thing I have learned over the years it is to never trust another mans work. If I dont do it for myself, then I cant trust anyone elses ideas and work. Riding the bike as it is now, there are no flatspots or roughness. It rides quite well so long as I dont crack it open below 3000rpm. I did not notice any difference with the snorkel out, and I am tempted to put it back in but for now it stays out to keep the testing all under the same conditions. Oh yeah, I removed the inlet restrictors too. I forgot to mention that earlier in the thread. As for any flatspots that show up, I am more than prepared to carve my own needles if need be. But doing that will require running without the airbox to monitor the slide position. We will see. I may end up going the way you have said Shayne, and detune it slightly to keep things happy, but that is what adds to the enjoyment.
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Mattjin
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I don’t think you are stupid. You just have a bad luck when thinking.
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Post by Mattjin on Jan 31, 2010 17:19:45 GMT 10
I had some trouble tracking down genuine jets, only managing to find a single 165 main jet. I ordered the rest so it might be a few days before I start the experimentation.
One question. Most report that going for an aftermarket air filter leans out the mixtures. I would take a guess that this is from the removal of the baffle wall that the stock air filter has. Does the same effect of leaning out happen if you remove the wall from the stock filter?
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cheekybugger
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Post by cheekybugger on Jan 31, 2010 17:51:15 GMT 10
I don't know for sure, but mine had a K & N and it wouldn't run right (others have not had that problem), but with a jet kit and stock filter tuning was better. Now it has a stock filter with the 'wall' removed and it was fine with debaffled OEM cans. Since putting the custom exhaust on things have changed a bit, but the most noticeable changes are above 7000 rpm and I don't get up there much . . . Cannot remember jetting and clip position - sorry.
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Mattjin
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Post by Mattjin on Jan 31, 2010 18:21:29 GMT 10
Thanks, it's OK. Happy to experiment and I might cut up the old stock air filter and give it a try. Nothing to loose. Might even have it dynoed again to see if it makes a difference to the AFRs. I have my doubts because there is clearly enough area to breathe above the wall but you never know...
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Mattjin
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I don’t think you are stupid. You just have a bad luck when thinking.
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Post by Mattjin on Feb 2, 2010 21:06:20 GMT 10
Got the other jet today, and just spent a little time in the garage installing them. I found it not too difficult, with it easy to just lay the carbs on their side and do the swap in the bike. Then in typical Murphy's Law fashion, as I was opening the garage door to go for a test ride the heavens opened up and it came down cats and dogs. Damn it! It will have to wait until tomorrow if the rain clears up, and if so I might head to the dyno again.
Does anyone on here have a spare long velocity stack they are willing to sell, or donate to science. :-) I may target more bottom and midrange as I dont often rev the engine out anyway. I tried ordering one today but was told Honda are out of stock and I need to wait a few weeks.
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shayne
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Post by shayne on Feb 3, 2010 9:10:33 GMT 10
H Power velocity stacks are the go if you can afford them. Current price is not shown, but they were about $350 a pair. www.hpower.com.au/bike.html
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Post by snowcone on Feb 3, 2010 11:32:17 GMT 10
I had some trouble tracking down genuine jets, only managing to find a single 165 main jet. I ordered the rest so it might be a few days before I start the experimentation. One question. Most report that going for an aftermarket air filter leans out the mixtures. I would take a guess that this is from the removal of the baffle wall that the stock air filter has. Does the same effect of leaning out happen if you remove the wall from the stock filter? I don't think it makes it any leaner. I have the stock filter with the baffle removed and my Storm is still very heavy on fuel (stock jets too). Mine also had no velocity stacks at all in it for about 2 years before I realised they should have been there. Went out and purchased a set from Honda and didn't notice any difference on the road at all.
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Post by FrillyBoBkinS on Feb 3, 2010 15:12:10 GMT 10
Not trying to hijack this thread but I just installed a K&N filter with Yoshi R-3's and now my bike runs like total shite. It was due for service anyways so i put it in and now i reckon it runs worse. I have this insanely dead spot as you 1st roll on the throttle at take off, it is so bad that the bike just wants to stall, then all of a sudden it catches and well, near throws you off the back. Starting and warming up is an issue now, it just doesnt want to run in low rev's, i have had to increase the idle up to 1500rpm while i figure out wat the fook im going to do with it. In the upper gears and rev range it seems fine and behaves but down low it has tuned into a nasty pig and horrble to ride in traffic. It coughs and splutters and I now find my self taking off like I would with a IL4, quite a few revs before letting the clutch slip I guess ill take out my new filter and go back to the old Unless anyone can tell me another quick fix Im really disappointed im not sure why but I imagined it to run better with a K&N not fantastically worse. .
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cheekybugger
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Post by cheekybugger on Feb 3, 2010 16:30:14 GMT 10
Not trying to hijack this thread but I just installed a K&N filter with Yoshi R-3's and now my bike runs like total shite. It was due for service anyways so i put it in and now i reckon it runs worse. I have this insanely dead spot as you 1st roll on the throttle at take off, it is so bad that the bike just wants to stall, then all of a sudden it catches and well, near throws you off the back. Starting and warming up is an issue now, it just doesnt want to run in low rev's, i have had to increase the idle up to 1500rpm while i figure out wat the fook im going to do with it. In the upper gears and rev range it seems fine and behaves but down low it has tuned into a nasty pig and horrble to ride in traffic. It coughs and splutters and I now find my self taking off like I would with a IL4, quite a few revs before letting the clutch slip I guess ill take out my new filter and go back to the old Unless anyone can tell me another quick fix Im really disappointed im not sure why but I imagined it to run better with a K&N not fantastically worse. Same happened to me with Stage 1 Jet kit and High Rise Staintunes. Went back to the stock filter and it was rideable again. Others have not had the same issue though so I dunno what else to add.
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Mattjin
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Post by Mattjin on Feb 3, 2010 19:49:02 GMT 10
Exactly why I (and most others no doubt) should stick with the stock filter. Why change to something else that is reported to not give any worthwhile gains, yet give you a bunch of headaches that you did not have beforehand.
I just got back from a quick road test with the 165 mains. It rides just as well as before with no flatspots, and seat-of-the-pants feels stronger from around 5000rpm onwards. I will get it on the dyno ASAP, but with all the rain around Sydney at the moment I will be waiting until it clears up. If I get enough time I will take the snorkel with me and see the effect.
It would be interesting to try and find what differences there are between those that have issues and those that dont. Could it more be something to do with the DJ jet kits? Maybe opening the slide a little faster causes it to go lean due to the low intake velocity and lack of accel pump? Worth thinking about.
A little reminder that I am still on the stock needle at the moment. I will try out the Factory Pro needles after the next dyno roads. Once the top-end is sorted with the mains I might sacrifice a little midrange by running the new needles a little higher to try and richen up below 4000rpm.
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cheekybugger
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Post by cheekybugger on Feb 3, 2010 20:02:52 GMT 10
I should add that I used Factory Pro Jets, not Dyno Jet. Perhaps that makes a difference?
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nitros
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06 vtr Black
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Post by nitros on Feb 4, 2010 20:33:34 GMT 10
At my 24K service I had a K&N filter added and then had the bike dyno'd again. In the end they fitted larger jets but can't remember what size?
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bristunt
Senior Member
2000 SP1
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Post by bristunt on Feb 7, 2010 11:43:39 GMT 10
With the FP needles anything richer than the 3rd slot from the bottom is too rich.
When fitting a K&N filter with stock jetting, shimming the needles usually does the job.
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Mattjin
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Post by Mattjin on Feb 8, 2010 17:52:02 GMT 10
Booked in for another dyno session tomorrow, and this time I will bring along the intake snorkel for some testing. It just depends on the weather man and if they are right in it being fine and sunny tomorrow. Since owning my VTR it has not had a drop of water on it. :-)
*Was too busy at work so had to re-book.*
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Post by revhead1957 on Feb 17, 2010 18:56:46 GMT 10
Any updates?
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Mattjin
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Post by Mattjin on Feb 18, 2010 13:45:29 GMT 10
Yes. Just got home from the next dyno session. Same as last time, I have to go back tomorrow in the car to pick up the sheets but I can report the findings and post the images tomorrow.
First up was to continue with the snorkel out but with the new 165 Main Jets (genuine Honda). Power is up across the board with a peak now of 108hp. Mixtures are near to perfect so I definitely calculated the jet sizes well. I maybe would have put in a 168 Main but Honda did not list them so I did not bother.
Next was to put the snorkel back in and see if it gained or lost. Well.... it lost heaps of power. It ran lean and was very unhappy so we canned the run. So out came the snorkel again and I am throwing the damn thing away. I am willing to bet that with the snorkel left in I would have needed larger jets to get AFR's right, but for now I am very happy with how it runs without the snorkel.
To confirm, the total list of my mods are the Yoshimura pipes, exhaust ground out, inlet restrictors removed, snorkel removed, and jets changed. Stock airbox and filter, with stock needles all untouched. The bike rides perfectly with no freeway or high speed issues, nor crosswind problems. It pulls cleanly from around 2000rpm without chugging too and AFR's are still good at this low rpm.
So, anyone who wants an unused Factory Pro Jet Kit, I have one sitting here in the garage.
Also, one day if I feel lucky I might put the 4deg advance trigger wheel in and see if it picks up. Might hit 110hp if it does as advertised.
*** Modified the post, forgot to mention the intake restrictors are removed ***
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Mattjin
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I don’t think you are stupid. You just have a bad luck when thinking.
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Post by Mattjin on Feb 18, 2010 19:00:22 GMT 10
Some thoughts on the effects of the snorkel.
From my experience here, removing it has the effect of making the fuel mixtures richer. I would dare say that anyone that has jetted richer than stock, then tried removing it, would find the mixtures far too rich and power would be lost. It may be that I am still using the stock filter that stops any weirdo things happening too. I cant see any benefit at all for running an aftermarket air filter at this point.
One small thing we found on the dyno is that we had a hard time trying to get an AFR reading at low rpm from the RHS muffler. Moving to the LHS gave a clean signal. From my experience when this happens with the cars it is from reversion on one side of the pipe and we simply pivot the probe around 180deg and it cleans up the signal. On a bike the pipe diameter is small so this has little effect. It may be that the LHS still flows better than the RHS even though it has been cleaned up with the die grinder. So my advice if you go to a dyno is to make sure the AFR probe is placed in the LHS pipe to get correct readings.
Thoughts on how the bike is running now vs stock.
We even held the throttle wide open below 2000rpm and the motor was still smooth with solid 13.0:1 mixtures. On the road it pulls clean from any revs without chugging, and feels to rev out very cleanly. Stock it would occasionally lean misfire at low rpm if you opened the throttle too quickly. Even the exhaust noise has cleaned up and sounds alot smoother. But these are points that anyone that has jetted their VTR correctly will report.
Oh, I should put a shout out to S&R Pro whose dyno I have been using. Both times I have needed to use it I just dropped in and he did it immediately.
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Post by revhead1957 on Feb 18, 2010 22:11:06 GMT 10
I presume that you did full throttle runs. Did you do any half throttle runs at all? Is the airbox still stock - is the 'baffle bar' still intact?
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Mattjin
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Post by Mattjin on Feb 19, 2010 6:55:19 GMT 10
There was some part throttle running for short periods up to 6000 with AFRs in the mid 13s but I was not going to waste too much time doing half throttle runs to redline. The airbox is untouched and air filter completely stock because a can't see a restriction there IMHO at the power level I am at.
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Mattjin
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Post by Mattjin on Feb 19, 2010 19:21:12 GMT 10
I have the dyno sheets but the scanner is playing silly-buggers. Might have to post them up tomorrow.
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Mattjin
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Post by Mattjin on Feb 20, 2010 14:36:26 GMT 10
Here are the sheets. You can see what effect putting the snorkel back in had. Mind you, I have already jetted leaner so that would be the primary cause of the lost power when replacing it. It definitely has an effect of needing larger jets. What I am most happy with is that at very low rpm WOT the mixtures still stay around 13.0:1 and the bike runs clean. Stock standard it was never 100% happy. Also note that the old power run peak of 102.6 (103 is close enough) is only a spike in the graph. All other runs were around 100-101 without the little blip. This next sessions after the jetting change gave the last 3 runs at a solid 108. I reckon if I could be bothered, and I could find one, a 162 Main in the front cyl might even pick me up maybe another 1hp or so.
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