Front Brake lever travel

[nexzzt]

Hello,

I've searched this forum (and others) but wasn't able to find anything that matched my specific problem.

I have a 99 VTR1000 which as done approx 83,000. I know little to nothing about the service history (it was a gift from my brother). Anyway, the front brakes felt terrible, even unsafe. It didn't stop well at all, and the brake lever travel was excessive. I replaced the pads and the bike now stops very well, but the lever travel problem persists. For example, the bike came to me with after market shorty levers that are adjustable. With the lever adjust all the way out (furthest from the handlebar), I can get it to touch the the handle bar (even though this amount of force would lock the wheel). I've also replaced the levers with standard length units (I hate shorties), thinking the old units might be faulty or worn in some way, but the issue persists.

My immediate though was to bleed the front brakes, thinking there's air in the lines. I also replaced all of the brake fluid, however the the lever travel is still excessive. I've found that if I strap the lever to the handle bar and leave it over night, the next day the lever travel is what I would call normal, and the feel is great. However, by the end of the day, the lever travel and feel has gradually gone back to the way it was before.

There doesn't appear to be any leaks that I can see, the fluid level stays the same. I've seen plenty of forums with lever travel issues, and strapping the level to handle bar has fixed it, but I can't find any examples of the lever travel issues returning after using this method.

As mentioned, no idea what servicing has been done previously so if a caliper or master cylinder rebuild kit could be possible fixes then I'm open to it. Just didn't want to spend money on them if there's a low to no chance of fixing the problem.

Anyone have any ideas what's going on?

Thank you
Ben

[vtrstormer]

Ben so you have the standard rubber break lines still on the bike? Is you do incest in some braided lines as I would say if there is no leaks to be found the lines maybe breaking down. You say you have changed all the fluids and so on and that would have been the first thing I would have checked as well... maybe the calipers need to overhauled as well as there maybe something happening in behind that you cannot see... all just thoughts but things to check. Stick with it mate as they are fairly simple to sort out and the grin factor is well worth it.

Let us know how you go

[kenmoore]

Stuck or sticky caliper piston !

Get some brake clean and clean them up .

Easier if you remove the calipers , take the pads out, clean the Pistons, clean the slide pins, reassemble and then bleed .

Just my thoughts.

[nexzzt]

Thanks for the suggestions.

I was thinking a sticking caliper piston. I might start with new seals and clean on the calipers/pistons, and if that doesn't help, I'll look at the lines and maybe upgrade to braided ones.

I'll report back on that one.

One other question. The fuel reserve light isn't working. I was ok with it as I've had bikes with no fuel gauge or anything before, and just worked off the trip. But the other day I miss calculated and ran out halfway along the Ted Smout Bridge in Redcliffe (any who knows that bridge knows how long that bastard is, with no where to pull over). Anyway, I've researched the issue and got myself a new thermistor. The question I have is what are the gotchas when removing the tank? I've never done anything like this on a bike before. I've had a look at the service manual, but the pictures aren't great and the description is brief.

Cheers
Ben

[vtrstormer]

Yours is a 99 model so will have a fuel petdoodle. 8mm spanner turn it to the off position and that will stop fuel from the tank. You will have a total of 4 hoses to remove from the tank and petdoodle. And then you can lift the tank off...

Easier when tank is nearly empty
Take photos of where the hoses go now as these can get you confused when connecting them again... the two long hoses form the carbs will still have fuel in them and can be blocked by 2 x 10mm bolts etc

[nexzzt]

Sept 26, 2017 20:11:09 GMT 10 vtrstormer said:

Yours is a 99 model so will have a fuel petdoodle. 8mm spanner turn it to the off position and that will stop fuel from the tank. You will have a total of 4 hoses to remove from the tank and petdoodle. And then you can lift the tank off...

Easier when tank is nearly empty
Take photos of where the hoses go now as these can get you confused when connecting them again... the two long hoses form the carbs will still have fuel in them and can be blocked by 2 x 10mm bolts etc

Excellent, just the kind of advice I was looking for.

Thank you
Ben

[Kev W]

Ben
As has been suggested, I would be more inclined to lean towards rubber brake hoses being the issue with front brake lever travel. 18 year old brake hoses will be shot. try clamping the brake hoses one at a time near the Master cylinder and check the feel. If you feel an improvement then try clamping them close to the calipers. If still improved when tried there it will point to a caliper fault. If soggy when clamped near calipers it will confirm it is the hoses.

The fuel light issue may be that the float in the tank is not working properly and can be adjusted by bending it up till it puts the light on where needed. Or the float may have a hole and if full of fuel and sunk.

[nexzzt]

Sept 28, 2017 7:45:29 GMT 10 Kev W said:

Ben
As has been suggested, I would be more inclined to lean towards rubber brake hoses being the issue with front brake lever travel. 18 year old brake hoses will be shot. try clamping the brake hoses one at a time near the Master cylinder and check the feel. If you feel an improvement then try clamping them close to the calipers. If still improved when tried there it will point to a caliper fault. If soggy when clamped near calipers it will confirm it is the hoses.

The fuel light issue may be that the float in the tank is not working properly and can be adjusted by bending it up till it puts the light on where needed. Or the float may have a hole and if full of fuel and sunk.

Thanks. I'll check the hoses as you recommend. Would the hose covered with a rag or similar, then clamped with vise grips be ok, or could that damage hose?

Fuel light: My understanding is the 99 only has a fuel reserve light with just a thermistor to turn on the fuel light when the fuel gets below a certain level, rather than a float that feeds a fuel gauge. I also read that it's common for thermistor to go bad and needs to be replaced. Sound right? I've tested the fuel light by connecting it to 12v (using the method described in the service manual) and it is working.

Cheers
Ben

[Kev W]

Sept 28, 2017 8:32:19 GMT 10 nexzzt said:

Sept 28, 2017 7:45:29 GMT 10 Kev W said:

Ben
As has been suggested, I would be more inclined to lean towards rubber brake hoses being the issue with front brake lever travel. 18 year old brake hoses will be shot. try clamping the brake hoses one at a time near the Master cylinder and check the feel. If you feel an improvement then try clamping them close to the calipers. If still improved when tried there it will point to a caliper fault. If soggy when clamped near calipers it will confirm it is the hoses.

The fuel light issue may be that the float in the tank is not working properly and can be adjusted by bending it up till it puts the light on where needed. Or the float may have a hole and if full of fuel and sunk.

Thanks. I'll check the hoses as you recommend. Would the hose covered with a rag or similar, then clamped with vise grips be ok, or could that damage hose?

Fuel light: My understanding is the 99 only has a fuel reserve light with just a thermistor to turn on the fuel light when the fuel gets below a certain level, rather than a float that feeds a fuel gauge. I also read that it's common for thermistor to go bad and needs to be replaced. Sound right? I've tested the fuel light by connecting it to 12v (using the method described in the service manual) and it is working.

Cheers
Ben


Ben use thin nose vise grips with a couple of small sockets on the tips to clamp the hoses less likely to do damage.
Or get  a set of hose clamps from supercheap either set below will be useful in future
Brake Hose Clamp
ToolPro Hose Clamp - Small, 2 Pack

Cheers
Kev

[nexzzt]

Thanks, heading to Supercheap tonight!

Ben

[Kev W]

Sept 28, 2017 8:44:30 GMT 10 nexzzt said:

Thanks, heading to Supercheap tonight!

Ben

All good mate.
The clamps can be used on fuel lines too when you take tank off so useful to have.

Kev

[nexzzt]

So it turns out the PO installed what I believe are braided lines on the front brakes. They look like the race configuration (2 lines going from the M/C, one to each caliper).

I clamped both close to the M/C, and got normal feel back. Then tried one clamp at a time near the M/C and found that only the line going to the left caliper has the issue. If I clamp that line near the left caliper, a very small amount of feel comes back (maybe 5%).

So would this mean that the line feeding the left caliper needs to be replaced? I checked all the connection bolts and they are tight, no leaks that I can see.

Thanks
Ben

[Kev W]

Sept 29, 2017 19:47:27 GMT 10 nexzzt said:

So it turns out the PO installed what I believe are braided lines on the front brakes. They look like the race configuration (2 lines going from the M/C, one to each caliper).

I clamped both close to the M/C, and got normal feel back. Then tried one clamp at a time near the M/C and found that only the line going to the left caliper has the issue. If I clamp that line near the left caliper, a very small amount of feel comes back (maybe 5%).

So would this mean that the line feeding the left caliper needs to be replaced? I checked all the connection bolts and they are tight, no leaks that I can see.

Thanks
Ben

Replace them as A pair Ben as different manufacturers can have slight differences in internal size and you will have an inbalance of pressure.
Twin hoses is the standard setup Firestorms run independant hose to each caliper as standard and join at Master cylinder with a long Banjo bolt.
Take a pic of the lines as braided lines usually have a brand name on the at on end or other.
If you cant post a pic here send it to me via facebook instant messenger. my facebook page is here Kevs page

[nexzzt]

Goodridge? Are they any good? I was thinking of going with HEL from here: www.wemoto.com.au/bikes/honda/vtr_1000_f1_firestorm__-_sc36/01/picture/hel_front_hydraulic_hose_-_race_set-up/

What I can't figure out is if its a kit of 2 hoses, or if that's per hose. It does say "Stainless Steel Brake Lines" so I assume 2.

Cheers
Ben

[vtrstormer]

Ben look up wezmoto on eBay. He does the braided lines and are very high quality lines too. I have installed them on mine and have had them 4 years now without issues. Half the price of others and just as good...

[Kev W]

Sept 30, 2017 6:34:01 GMT 10 nexzzt said:

Goodridge? Are they any good? I was thinking of going with HEL from here: www.wemoto.com.au/bikes/honda/vtr_1000_f1_firestorm__-_sc36/01/picture/hel_front_hydraulic_hose_-_race_set-up/

What I can't figure out is if its a kit of 2 hoses, or if that's per hose. It does say "Stainless Steel Brake Lines" so I assume 2.

Cheers
Ben

View Attachment

I have Goodridge on mine and no issue. And they are a well known brand. Hel are a good brand. From what I could make out from that link it said the kit contained Hoses, plural so you shoul be fine mate. Email to confirm
Kev

[nexzzt]

Got the fuel reserve light sorted today. Managed to get it done with out removing the rear tank mount or the fuel/breather lines.

Found some damage to the outer sheath on the suspect brake line too while I was bleeding it again today. The braiding looks ok though.

Ben

[binny]

I honestly think it's fairly unlikely to be the braided line. Before you spend the money on new ones I would investigate a bit further.
You say you have bled the lines which takes care of the line itself but have you bled the calipers? When you are "bleeding the brakes" you are really only changing the fluid that is in the lines themselves. And of course bleeding any air that has risen to the top of the caliper. It doesn't do very good at replacing the actual fluid in the caliper though. You can end up still having disgusting fluid behind the pistons that is contaminated and not doing much. Getting the old fluid out of the calipers is not as easy but worth trying. I take the caliper off, remove the pads and push the pistons in while cracking the bleed nipple open. What came out was a disgusting yellow muddy looking mess. And it was only a couple of months after my mechanic had bled it with a power bleeder and dot 5.1 blue fluid.

After putting it back together pump it back up and top up fluid as required. After I did this the lever was the firmest it has been on either of my VTRs. And this one has standard lines. The old one had braided.

[nexzzt]

I am looking for cheap/free solutions so i'll try this next. Thank you.

[nexzzt]

Any advice on how to remove the pin that retains the brake pads when it's so stuck it feels like I'm going to chew up the hex head?

Cheers
Ben

[steve400]

Order new pins. If they're that hard to get out they're probably shot - there's a few really good videos on how to get the stuck ones out and how to maintain them, and also when to replace them. They're consumables, just like pads, and need to be properly maintained and replaced when needed. Any Honda shop will be able to order them for you, so if you don't know what you're doing go there, then keep the package with part number and order online and cheaper next time.

I watch a pretty handy YouTube channel called delboys garage, I like the way he explains shit and I like how he does stuff on the cheap.

[nexzzt]

Oct 26, 2017 22:47:00 GMT 10 steve400 said:

Order new pins. If they're that hard to get out they're probably shot - there's a few really good videos on how to get the stuck ones out and how to maintain them, and also when to replace them. They're consumables, just like pads, and need to be properly maintained and replaced when needed. Any Honda shop will be able to order them for you, so if you don't know what you're doing go there, then keep the package with part number and order online and cheaper next time.

I watch a pretty handy YouTube channel called delboys garage, I like the way he explains shit and I like how he does stuff on the cheap.

Thanks, I'll check out the video. The pins look new to me. I had the carby looked at by a shop (one of the POs drilled out the jets which screwed the idle and neutral throttle, it would cough and die frequently), they changed the front pads and I think the replaced the pins also. I think they've done them up so hard I can't get them out.

I have managed to fix the front brake problem. It was the brake lines. I replaced them with HEL lines, took an age to bleed them, but got there in the end.

Thanks for the help, saved me a lot of money.

Cheers
Ben

[steve400]

When you’re doing your ones, just bottom the screw out and give it a tiny nip, these things honestly don’t need to be reefed up. There’s a torque setting somewhere but to be honest you’re likely to break it unless you’re using a high quality, calibrated torque wrench. Screw it in gently until it bottoms out, then just a small nip up and it’ll be fine.

(I’m not qualified to give this information, but that’s just how I do it. No idea if it’s safe or legal but I’m still alive and my brakes still work, and they come apart when I need them to)

[nexzzt]

Damn it. About a week later the original lever travel problem returned. Would a master cylinder rebuild kit be the next thing to do?

Thanks
Ben

[nexzzt]

Quick update.

I re-read this thread and was reminded about checking the callipers. Removed the front brake callipers with the intention of checking the seals etc. The stuck brake pad pin got the better of me. I couldn't removed it using a hex tool, completely destroyed it. So I split the calliper in half to attack the pin from the other side, and again it wouldn't budge, and I ended up snapping it.

Anyway, picked up a replacement set from a guy parting out his bike (which were in better condition than mine), checked and cleaned them and have them installed. I have good brake lever feel now, but will wait a week or 2 to see what happens.

As it turned out, the old callipers has this snot like stuff in them, that only came out when I put compressed air through the passages. Could this have been the reason for the original problem with the lever travel?

Thanks
Ben

[steve400]

Yes mate you need spotless brakes. “Snot like” is never a description you want to use when talking about your stoppers. I regularly pull my calipers off and clean all the crap off the pistons and clean up the pins, it’s surprising how much crap they pick up just from day to day riding.

If the lever is creeping back, it means you’re losing pressure in the system. If it’s not coming out the caliper nipples or the banjos, it seems it’s a seal issue. Normally easy to spot around the pistons. If you’re not losing any fluid anywhere, then it’s time to get inside.

[nexzzt]

Hi, Thanks for the reply.

Agreed, "snot like" isn't a great description for anything really. I definitely wasn't losing any brake fluid anywhere, so it must have been the snot. Also, I haven't been able to ride the bike since installing the replacement callipers, but I've been checking the lever each day and the travel hasn't changed.

Cheers
Ben

[rodt]

Hi - have just joined this group and saw this post when looking for something else.
I have an 05 model with exactly the same brake problem and symptoms as nexzzt. I fitted double HEL braided lines a couple of years ago and have recently replaced the master cylinder and caliper seals. I had the whole system off the bike to bleed the system but now find I have to use the zip-tie method to keep the brake feel I like since this is used a racebike. The brakes are awesome once the zip-tie has been on overnight but I find I have to keep it on to retain that feel when not using the bike.
I have heard a theory that new seals can grip the pistons and deform slightly when brakes are applied. Once the pressure is released the seal goes back to its original shape and pulls the piston back slightly further than it should. Keeping the pressure on with the zip-tie allows everything to settle to a new position. However, that doesn't explain why it slowly reverts back to excessive lever travel. I also have a similar problem with my Triumph Sprint ST which has always had mushy brakes but they work. These are also Nissin manufactured.

[nexzzt]

Hi rodt,

Have you blown out all of the passages in the callipers? That's what ended up fixing my problem. There was really old, sludgy brake fluid that won't come out with normal fluid flushing techniques. Had to pull the brake lines off, remove the pistons and bleeder, and blow all passages out with compressed air. This was after many fluid flushes and bleeds, the "snotty stuff" was still in there.

[rodt]

When I replaced the seals and had the pistons out I flushed out the caliper passages with brake cleaner, then alcohol, and then blew everything out with compressed air. I didn't split the calipers but I dont recall any really mucky stuff coming out, just old discoloured brake fluid.