shayne
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1998 Blueprint
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Post by shayne on Aug 16, 2008 18:58:15 GMT 10
Ok, two of us are looking at doing this, myself & Hymey, and there has been some discussion in a non-related post. So it is time to have a specific thread. I had the clutch cover off today, repainting it. The VTR does in fact have a crank angle sensor for the computer controlled ignition. It has two wires coming from the sensor. We can use these to run to an aftermarket ecu. Eventually I will run a Microtech ecu on mine, mainly because I have experience tuning them, they are a very good computer aswell and easy to setup. I have two 550cc injectors from a 13B turbo here to use too.
cheersWhat you are talking about is the Pulse Generator Coil Switch. So you sure that will run an ECU? I have looked at Microtech as well for an ECU, and this one might do the job. Do you agree? www.microtechefi.com/microtech-products.php?product_id=2There is another model below this which runs two injectors, but I will have 4 injectors in my set-up. I am waiting to receive some SP1 throttle bodies, and they have two injectors per body. They have a TPS and MAP in the standrad set-up. For a fuel pump I am planning on modifying the underneath of my VTR tank to fit a submerged VFR800 fuel pump. I have looked at a few pumps, and the VFR800 pump mounts on the same angle, as the tanks are a very similar shape.
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shayne
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1998 Blueprint
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Post by shayne on Aug 16, 2008 19:31:44 GMT 10
Just had a look at the specs for the Pulse Generator Coil. It is tested by checking resistance and voltage.
The resistance bothers me a bit. It may not like another component connected to it.
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Post by dropbear84 on Aug 16, 2008 19:47:29 GMT 10
For a fuel pump I am planning on modifying the underneath of my VTR tank to fit a submerged VFR800 fuel pump. I have looked at a few pumps, and the VFR800 pump mounts on the same angle, as the tanks are a very similar shape. The Storm sounds like it's turning into a VFR! Maybe the injectors can utilise a VTEC set-up and run under one cylinder
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RedTumble
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Post by RedTumble on Aug 16, 2008 20:43:26 GMT 10
Sounds like some heart ache ahead The 2003 and later Honda XL 1000V Varadero has PGM-FI electronic fuel injection with 42mm throttle bores. It’s basically a VTR engine, the EFI would pretty much bolt straight on, the Ignition would be similar also, the jobs already done from factory If I was interested in injecting my VTR this is where I’d start The basic specsThe Varadero forumVaradero air box assembleyThrottlebody assemblyThrottle body componantsSecond hand parts may be a bit tricky to get here; they were predominantly aimed at the UK market. Good Luck!! ;D
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shayne
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1998 Blueprint
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Post by shayne on Aug 16, 2008 21:47:06 GMT 10
42mm is too small in my opinion. This was my first thought, but I discarded it. As an example of why, the Suzuki SV1000 has 52mm throttle bodies.
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billzilla
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2005 - Matte Black
Posts: 338
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Post by billzilla on Aug 16, 2008 23:24:33 GMT 10
Ditch the Microtech and go for an Adaptronic ECU. A metric arseload better in pretty much every way.
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Post by colinlinz on Aug 17, 2008 9:43:24 GMT 10
It's not that I think it can't be done. Just that I'm not sure there would be many gains. I'm sure there would be an outright power advantage, and I'm sure it would work great on a drag strip. When you look at how complex the standard systems have become just to approach the feel and connection that carbies can provide to the rider, you just know it's not going to be very easy. By way of an example, the new CBR1000 even has a sensor to sense gearcase back lash. This is so it knows when to soften the fuel delivery so as not to destabilise the bike when shifting gear or starting to roll on the throttle when exiting turns. As for the 42mm throttle bodies, I reckon that they would be too small. That system off the XL1000V is built around the bikes intended usage and 5 speed gearcase. This equates to a need for midrange torque at the expense of power. It will be a great project, and one that will make an already unique bike just that little bit more special. For interest I've posted a scan of my notes on the backlash sensor.
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RedTumble
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Post by RedTumble on Aug 17, 2008 10:38:21 GMT 10
42mm is too small in my opinion. This was my first thought, but I discarded it. As an example of why, the Suzuki SV1000 has 52mm throttle bodies. I’d doubt you’d notice the difference on its stand in the shed!
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billzilla
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Post by billzilla on Aug 17, 2008 10:42:18 GMT 10
It's not that I think it can't be done. Just that I'm not sure there would be many gains. I'm sure there would be an outright power advantage, and I'm sure it would work great on a drag strip. You'll pick up a tiny bit more top-end power, but the main difference will be the driveability and economy. For example, there's a racing class in the US that runs a 1600cc Toyota engine (4 x 400cc pots) and when the rules called for carbies only (twin 45mm DCOE Webers) they got 238hp maximum. When the rules changed to allow EFI, the power went up to 242hp, and that's almost dyno error. But the big difference was that they improved the mid-range power at 6,000rpm by a full 20hp. The reason for this is the very fine control over the mixtures that you get at nearly every rev point and throttle position. You just can't get that with any carby. Carbies have the slight advantage of introducing the fuel further out than a typical EFI installation and that cools the incoming air a bit more, so they can still make up near the same top-end power as even a good EFI engine. You can of course mount the injectors out in the open end of the inlet trumpet to get the same advantage but then at small throttle openings the fuel tends to puddle a bit and then the engine isn't good stooging around town and at idle. Also because you can run the mixtures at pretty much whatever you like, as well as good power you can also get good fuel economy. An engine I built a while back for one of my road cars made 185hp from 1.6 litres and drove just fine from about 1800rpm on, but still got 42mpg or 6.7 L/100km. FWIW I'm currently building another 1600cc engine for one of my road cars that will be about 240hp and it'll still be totally driveable and (hopefully!) also get good economy. For the 500cc pot of the VTR, I would recommend something about 50mm ID, 42mm is too small for best power at high revs but it'll be perhaps a little nicer around town.
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Post by colinlinz on Aug 17, 2008 11:05:57 GMT 10
It's not that I think it can't be done. Just that I'm not sure there would be many gains. I'm sure there would be an outright power advantage, and I'm sure it would work great on a drag strip. You'll pick up a tiny bit more top-end power, but the main difference will be the driveability and economy. For example, there's a racing class in the US that runs a 1600cc Toyota engine (4 x 400cc pots) and when the rules called for carbies only (twin 45mm DCOE Webers) they got 238hp maximum. When the rules changed to allow EFI, the power went up to 242hp, and that's almost dyno error. But the big difference was that they improved the mid-range power at 6,000rpm by a full 20hp. The reason for this is the very fine control over the mixtures that you get at nearly every rev point and throttle position. You just can't get that with any carby. Carbies have the slight advantage of introducing the fuel further out than a typical EFI installation and that cools the incoming air a bit more, so they can still make up near the same top-end power as even a good EFI engine. You can of course mount the injectors out in the open end of the inlet trumpet to get the same advantage but then at small throttle openings the fuel tends to puddle a bit and then the engine isn't good stooging around town and at idle. Also because you can run the mixtures at pretty much whatever you like, as well as good power you can also get good fuel economy. An engine I built a while back for one of my road cars made 185hp from 1.6 litres and drove just fine from about 1800rpm on, but still got 42mpg or 6.7 L/100km. FWIW I'm currently building another 1600cc engine for one of my road cars that will be about 240hp and it'll still be totally driveable and (hopefully!) also get good economy. For the 500cc pot of the VTR, I would recommend something about 50mm ID, 42mm is too small for best power at high revs but it'll be perhaps a little nicer around town. Cars and bikes are two very different things, as many of the F1 engineers have found in MotoGP. While they can make great engines when it comes to power, they have failed when it comes to rider connection. This is the area that is so difficult for EFI to compete with carbies. Power doesn't make a quick bike, even if it's mid range. It's the connection between the bike and rider, the rider has to be able to feel what's happening at the tyre, and for this to happen with EFI the system needs to be very refined. With throttle body size there is one thing to remember. Carbies need to have a modest size as too large will slow the air velocity down. This will in turn reduce the venturi effect and reduce the ability to draw fuel. EFI doesn't suffer from this. All we really need to consider is the best velocity to help use the mass of the air to charge the cylinder at the rpm we want. The VTRSP1 uses a 54mm body, but the SP2 uses a 62mm body. This gives an indication of the differences, and just how far we could go with our engines while still be perfectly fine for street use.
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shayne
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Post by shayne on Aug 17, 2008 20:21:40 GMT 10
42mm is too small in my opinion. This was my first thought, but I discarded it. As an example of why, the Suzuki SV1000 has 52mm throttle bodies. I’d doubt you’d notice the difference on its stand in the shed!
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shayne
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Post by shayne on Aug 17, 2008 20:24:51 GMT 10
Just had a look at the specs for the Pulse Generator Coil. It is tested by checking resistance and voltage. The resistance bothers me a bit. It may not like another component connected to it. So does anyone have an opinion on whether the Pulse Generator Coil can be used for a second purpose without upsetting it?
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shayne
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1998 Blueprint
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Post by shayne on Aug 17, 2008 20:27:18 GMT 10
Ditch the Microtech and go for an Adaptronic ECU. A metric arseload better in pretty much every way. As are a few others. It will be a matter of getting enough control of the inputs. The cheaper units may not be good enough for the control needed for a bike.
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billzilla
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Post by billzilla on Aug 17, 2008 20:58:03 GMT 10
Cars and bikes are two very different things, as many of the F1 engineers have found in MotoGP. While they can make great engines when it comes to power, they have failed when it comes to rider connection. This is the area that is so difficult for EFI to compete with carbies. Power doesn't make a quick bike, even if it's mid range. It's the connection between the bike and rider, the rider has to be able to feel what's happening at the tyre, and for this to happen with EFI the system needs to be very refined. True, however the latest EFI gear really is very good. And the VTR engine isn't exactly a racing engine sorry .... With throttle body size there is one thing to remember. Carbies need to have a modest size as too large will slow the air velocity down. This will in turn reduce the venturi effect and reduce the ability to draw fuel. EFI doesn't suffer from this. All we really need to consider is the best velocity to help use the mass of the air to charge the cylinder at the rpm we want. The VTRSP1 uses a 54mm body, but the SP2 uses a 62mm body. This gives an indication of the differences, and just how far we could go with our engines while still be perfectly fine for street use. Again true, but don't forget that even though that gear comes from the factory doesn't mean that it's right
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Post by hymey on Aug 17, 2008 22:27:43 GMT 10
Shayne the man to talk to is Jon Blanch from Microtech Australia he is based in Thornton NSW(Newcastle) He will do a base tune to any motor you like, something able to get the motor up and running.
I am unsure if the pulse generator will work. But in my eyes it is just a switch running off a reluctor wheel. Same as an crank angle sensor. The gen 3 v8 has the same setup, basically a switch with two wires coming from it going to the pcm. And I have seen guys install microtechs and use the module from the factory electronic dizzy for a switch to the pcm. Jon is the man to ask about this. He is on the microtech forum aswell. Worth emailing him.
I have my own efi tuning business up here and I tune a lot of cars but I have never converted an engine to fuel injection. I have spent a lot of time tuning the stock carbs, there are gains to be made with efi. Pretty good ones. And when tuned right feel no different to a carby.
The stock carb needs a big main jet to work and by doing so you end up with rich spots here and there and slightly lean spots. They can be improved upon greatly and even Bill from HPower has ran efi on a VTR and he said it was very good.
With efi you can control afr and timing at all load points. Adjust the injector pulse width and ignition timing at idle to achieve the best and smoothest possible idle, then tune to desired afr readings everywhere, about 13.0:1 at max torque and 13.4:1 at max power. Timing can be adjusted to obtain mean best timing at max torque and hp, something you cant do on a stock storm. Once you are on the open road the motor can lean out to 15.5:1 not a problem and then you can get 5L/100km from your storm. Power will be very responsive and very smooth and progressive.
Ecu choice is entirely upto the individual. Nothing wrong with the microtech. It is very user friendly easy to tune and has all the features required from any ecu.
No computer on the aftermarket today(not even a motec) comes close to the delphi pcm in the latest commodores. Plus there is support for these computers in real time tuning. They are much more complex, more load points very fast processor but for this application something like a microtech or haltech you just cant go past.
I can see why most people would steer clear of doing such a conversion. Some people love carbs, Most would just by an injected factory bike, but for those who have understanding computers, electronics and tuning this would be a very fun and rewarding exercise that would around $2000 no more if you do it right, the ecu is the dearest bit.
We require a CAS(which I hope the pulse generator is an option)
TPS- You can setup the microtech to run off tps for load points or MAP(the microtech has a built in 3 bar map sensor), I prefer manifold air pressure based tuning. The tps is still required as at its lowest value it will switch to idle mode in the ecu, once the tps is moved it goes into load fueling and ignition.
Coolant temp sensor, an easy one for cold start adjustments.
Intake air temp sensor- Optional but necessary...$8 will get you a thermistor from a holden dealer(from a VY SS)
With efi-as temps increase the engine leans out as it cools the engine runs rich. The IAT table will allow you to add fuel by a percentage for different climate. Generally require approx...1.5% more fuel for every 10 degree C. Also you can subtract timing as temps increase to prevent knock. And increase for colder temps.
Then we need a fuel pump with return and regulator. The earth from the fuel pump relay runs back to the ecu so it will cut fuel supply when the engine is switched off, it will also prime the system when ignition switched on.
Two 50mm throttle bodies would be nice and would work well. I am also thinking of building a 2L plenum with inbuilt trumpets with a single large TB on the front as I have further plans for my bike.
cheers
Joel
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shayne
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1998 Blueprint
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Post by shayne on Aug 18, 2008 10:56:08 GMT 10
I have not given any thought to controlling the ignition as well, I had intended to leave that to the factory ECU, and simply use the aftermarket ECU for fuel. I understand the benefits of doing fuel and ignition, but have you figured out how to do this? Replacing the factory ECU could be complicated.
As for the Pulse Generator, if you can figure that out, it would be handy. If it is not an option, the next one will be to see what the Varadero uses.
As for the ECU, my concern is that cheaper ones will not give us the control we need for a bike. I know a guy that does a lot of V8 Supercar stuff, and he has fitted a Motec to a Ducati. With the Motec, you can add in revs points every 100rpm if you want, and I reckon this kind of control will be beneficial with a bike. A car is a different matter, as it is not so critical.
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Post by hymey on Aug 18, 2008 13:16:08 GMT 10
A Motec would be good, although a haltech or Microtech will perform just aswell at all load points. V8 supercar teams use them for there logging capability but both the lower end versions can datalog with a wideband on a dyno not a problem and both systems will get fueling as accurate as required. I think it is more to do with the bloke behind the laptop than the ecu itself as in the last 5 years they have all come forward in leaps and bounds. There will be many features of the Motec that you wouldn't use and if I was spending that much I would by an Autronic.
As for ignition, it is simple, Throw away the stock computer and coils and wire in an ignitor(come with ecu) and fit 2 bosch coils($50 each). The ecu uses the crank angle sensor for an input....Firing of the coils is configured in the ecu at the factory by request. Just wire it in. I am unsure of the factory base ignition timing of the VTR. It is a matter of selecting "lock timing" in the ecu and the ecu will command 0 timing. It is a matter of then flashing the timing light through the hole on the crank case and checking that it is synchronised with the computer. If its out we have to set up a trim command in the ecu for an allowance in the difference in timing. As if we command 30 degrees timing at 5000rpm and 105kpa thats what we want. I like the idea of leaving the factory ignition box in place but we would be leaving power on the table by doing so. Especially in a modified engine.
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shayne
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Post by shayne on Aug 18, 2008 21:02:28 GMT 10
The wiring loom is considerable, and I don't think removing the factory ECU is an easy option. Looks like a BIG job to me. Agreed that it would be of great benefit to be able to control the ignition, but there are a hell of a lot of wires going to that ECU. Perhaps a better option would be to simply remove the specific wires we need to control the ignition and re-route them. In regards to the ECU's, as you say we do not need a lot of the functionality of the expensive units. Did you know Mclaren makes ECU's? ? Wonder how much they cost........ My concern is that the cheaper ones need to provide the same level of adjustability, as I reckon we will need it to get a nice throttle for street use. No point buying a cheaper one if they are not as good in my opinion. So we will need to make sure of our specifications to make sure we know what we are getting.
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Post by colinlinz on Aug 18, 2008 21:39:02 GMT 10
The pulse generator is the trigger coil for the ignition. I would expect it could be used as a crank position sensor as long as the voltage matched the ecu's range. It only outputs .7V (peak voltage). You would have to ask yourself why the VTRSP's use a separate crank angle sensor though.
In my opinion I think the rideability and feel will be down to more than just ecu adjustment. Bikes are only just now approaching carbies for feel. This is mostly because the systems they use have become more complex and input a range of data.
I have no preferance for carbies as such. EFI is much better at a range of tasks previously mentioned, and in a lot of ways easier to work on. However, feel and connection to traction are only just starting to get to the level that carbies can provide. I don't think this area will be easily achieved without considerable effort.
Someone mentioned earlier the VTRF isn't a race bike, and that's true enough. That doesn't mean it needs to be slow. A well set up Harley Davidson Sportster in relatively standard trim will lap Eastern Creek in 1:40's. I couldn't even achieve that on my Blade. Get a bike to respond well with good rider feedback and they will be much faster than just adding a stack more power.
If you want to achieve better fuel economy, more power, fewer emissions, turn key starting, have something a little different or complete a good project I think there is value in doing it. If you expect to get a quicker bike (other than a drag strip) then I think there will be little value in it, in terms of expense/results
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Post by hymey on Aug 19, 2008 10:13:44 GMT 10
I know that most of the ecus on the market can work with a wide variety of sensors.
There is no reason why we can get carbie feel. I think the problem is most people ride an efi bike that cant have adjustabilty on the ecu. You dont need a wide variety of complex inputs or outputs either. It is a common myth that efi will never feel like a carby. Most of the problem lies in fueling. When you tap the throttle on a carb it goes rich than stoich instantly. On efi it holds in closed loop until the correct parameters are met...then goes rich, therefor it has a smoother feel. Combined with the fact that NO production bike has a perfect performance tune. Even the best have room for improvement.
A mate of mine complained about the lack of response in his LS1. I disabled the MAF sensor ran the car of MAP sensor and engaged power enrichment earlier and it blown him away it is now more responsive than any carb, any this adjustabilty can be done on any of the aftermarket ecus. I dont think I have riden any factory bike that has its fueling correct yet. All manufacturers run engines lean down low and over rich up(keep cat temps down) high to pass emissions. Altering fueling and accelerator pump functions does wonders.
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shayne
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Post by shayne on Aug 19, 2008 10:28:48 GMT 10
Good point on the SP crank sensor Colin, Honda would not have used it if another component would do the job as well. I will have to try and find some inof on a Varadero crank or cam sensor. I haven't been able to find anything so far.
As for EFI verses carb, my VFR800 was terrible when I got it. It was really bad, and internet forums are full of owners complaining about the throttle. It was WAAAY worse than my Suzuki which wasn't perfect either. As the VFR is a keeper, I decided to sort out the fuelling. It is now better tha the Suzi, and considerably better than the VTR. A vast improvement with some basic tuning.
The SP1 componets I will be using on the VTR are similar in many ways to the VFR EFI components, usning the same sensors etc. I reckon a similar result is there to be had. Outright power is not my aim (however I have proven that ther VTR produces more power with increased airflow), but elsewhere I am hoping for considerable improvements.
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shayne
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Post by shayne on Aug 19, 2008 10:49:28 GMT 10
Oh, and the reason why an SP sensor is not much good is the fact that engine is entirely different, and the VTR cylinder head does not have the fitting for the SP sensor. The Varadero is the same engine, so hopefully any sensor it uses can be fitted to the VTR. Just need to find some info on it in a manual or something.
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Post by hymey on Aug 21, 2008 19:24:55 GMT 10
what ecu is on your vfr?
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shayne
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1998 Blueprint
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Post by shayne on Aug 21, 2008 19:54:29 GMT 10
Stock with a Power Commander. I have checked the SP1 & VFR wiring diagrams, and both systems work off a Cam Pulse Generator (I cannot find a crank sensor on either system). So they run the EFI off this and the Ignition Pulse Generator. Working on the theory that the Varadero EFI system will be the same, I am looking for info on the Cam Pulse Generator for it. It may be an easy fit to the VTR, seeing as the engine is the same. Something tells me that the head will be different, but you never know your luck. It may be able to be used easily enough.
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Mish
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Post by Mish on Oct 20, 2008 10:29:42 GMT 10
I know I'm a bit late getting in on this thread. I'm probably talking out of my arse here (haven't seen an SP1 up close and personal) but coundn't you bolt an engine from a wreaked SP1 into a VTRF or are their frames different. Finding a smashed SP1 could be a problem to.
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Post by Sharpest1 on Oct 20, 2008 11:11:04 GMT 10
Frames are completely different.
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shayne
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Post by shayne on Oct 20, 2008 17:52:14 GMT 10
Frames are completely different. As is the engine.
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shayne
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Post by shayne on Mar 11, 2009 21:42:51 GMT 10
Whilst I was changing the needle clip positions on my bike today, I took the opportunity to have a look at how the SP1 throttle bodies would fit on the VTR. As expected they are not spaced the same distance apart (wider than the VTR) as the carbs, so that will need to be changed. I figured this would be the case, and had given some thought to making some ally inlets to go between the throttle bodies and the cylinder inlet. Given that the TB's are a larger diameter than the carbs (54mm instead of 48mm), I could fix two problems with one part. The problem with this idea is that even though the TB's are shorter than the carbs, adding another component might make height a problem as I want to retain an airbox. But the TB's are tapered, not straight, so they are larger at the top than at the bottom. The rubber inlets are the same, tapered from top to bottom. Guess what size the cylinder head side of the rubber inlets are? Yep, same as the carbs. They fit straight onto the head. As the TB's are bolted together like the carbs are, I will just need to make new brackets, linkages and fuel line and they will bolt straight on. The throttle position sensor is also the same between the two assemblies, and has the same plug on each one. So it would seem that my decision to use Honda TB's instead of aftermarket stuff might work out nicely.
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shayne
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Post by shayne on Apr 19, 2009 20:25:17 GMT 10
The SP1 throttle bodies have Keihin 4 hole injectors. Most stuff now uses 12 hole injectors to give better atomisation, so over the Easter break I decided to see if I could find out if later model injectors would fit. This would change the fuel delivery of course so would cause problems on a bike with a standard ECU, but in my case it is no problem as I will have a programable ECU anyway. So I spent plenty of time on the net checking componentry. Without finding a definitive answer though. But I have worked up a good list of part numbers, which shows me what parts are common to what models.
My VFR has 12 hole injectors, and these are the same injectors used on some Fireblades, so the flow rates won't be a problem. They are also able to operate at 50psi. But I didn't know if they would fit. One way to find out for sure though.
So on Easter Monday I put the VFR in the shed and started pulling bits off it until I had the fuel rail off and a couple of injectors out. They are Denso injectors and are a different shape, but using a combination of seals from each type of injector they fit in the SP1 throttle bodies nicely. In fact, they are more snug in there than in the VFR. No way they will move. They are also the exact same length, and are positioned in the TB perfectly. ;D
Next thing is the fuel delivery. SP1 regulator is 50psi and operates with a return line. I would like to run a submerged fuel pump, and given the similarities in tank shape between the VTR & VFR, a VFR pump will fit in the tank. The fuel lines and fittings are also the same size as the SP1 TB's. Given that the VTR runs on a gravity fed fuel system in standard form, the VFR pumps' min flow rate of about 0.9 litres per minute should be fine, even though it is less than the SP1 pumps delivery rate. Not certain about this side of things yet, but these are my thoughts at the moment.
As for an ECU, Australia is one of the leaders in the world when it come to manufacture of ECU's. It looks to me that the new (yet to be released) up-spec model Adaptronic will be what I need. Seems to be about the best thing on the market until you get to Motecs at double the price. Fully programmable in regards to RPM points, load points, separate fuel and ignition mapping for each cylinder, will run closed loop with a wide band O2 sensor, you name it she does it.
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billzilla
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Posts: 338
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Post by billzilla on Apr 20, 2009 11:54:47 GMT 10
It looks to me that the new (yet to be released) up-spec model Adaptronic will be what I need. Seems to be about the best thing on the market until you get to Motecs at double the price. Fully programmable in regards to RPM points, load points, separate fuel and ignition mapping for each cylinder, will run closed loop with a wide band O2 sensor, you name it she does it. I totally agree - for the dollar they are by a huge margin the best thing around. The Motec/Autronic's are better, but cost a fair bit more and are likely to have a bunch of features that you just won't need.
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